Where is the face of humanity in
research projects that involve abductees?
Let’s say a professional person
out there who holds a job, has a family, and who doesn’t know anything about
the UFO community, wants to contact somebody about their experiences and checks
out the big three web sites for information. What would they find?
The
Coalition Web sites –
MUFON: On its home page, there are cows
under a UFO disk. Cows – really? There is nothing on abduction anywhere on the
website to show they consider abductions are important. It also doesn’t help
that the last International Director went on The Daily Show and made fun of his own organization.
CUFOS: They at least have an abduction link on the home page which leads to some articles. But under the brief overview section, a segment states:
“Although no one can prove that people are actually taken
aboard UFOs, if you should find yourself in this predicament, try to remain
calm. Observe and remember as much as you can; even ask questions. Try to grab
something and bring it back with you as evidence of your experience. As in
life, having faith, courage, a sense of humor, and using your intelligence will
help you deal with the most unusual situations.”
This
paragraph is analogous to asking a surgery patient to bring back something from
the operating room. Good luck with that one. Anyone who has had an abduction
experience knows how hopeless this is, and if they don’t know that, well…..
FUFOR: They have a link to Budd Hopkins’ Intruders Foundation on the home page, other than that – nothing.
So what is a person to do? Whom
do they trust? None of these sites has anything substantive about abductions. I
have tried to contact by email or personally talk to many different individuals
within these organizations, only to be ignored or marginalized. I have heard
jokes made at abductees’ expense, I have heard cruel and insensitive ridicule
hurled at abductees. It cuts me like a hot knife when I hear these things.
Especially from people I respect, who have done so much hard work and
contributed so much to the field of ufology; people who have sacrificed so much
of their own lives to the study of the field. Not everybody I hang out with in
the UFO community knows I am an abductee. I know from experience it affects the
way they treat you if they find out.
You become “one of those people.”
It
Hurts
(c)
rolffimages/www.fotosearch.com
I have heard from several people
that the Coalition had trouble getting abductees to participate in the Ambient
Monitoring Project. So…why couldn’t the Coalition of MUFON, CUFOS, and FUFOR get alien abductees to jump
happily on their Ambient Monitoring Project bandwagon? Hmmmm....does anyone in
the room have any idea?
PICK ME! PICK ME!
PICK ME!
(c)
4774344sean/www.fotosearch.com
It’s called trust, plain and simple. How about some basic
human dignity? To be treated like an individual who has been through hell and
doesn’t deserve to be joked about, ridiculed, ignored, and marginalized. Abductees
go through a lot of testing scenarios in their lives already; it is not easy to
willingly jump into another one when there is the fear of being treated like
dirt. That is the last thing they need.
That all being said, if some
abduction research project could be developed where sincerity, dignity, and
compassion were shown for the subjects involved so abductees could trust the
research project and the people involved in it, I believe abductees themselves
would fund it. Considering all of the money I have paid out over the years due
to this phenomenon, I would help fund the research if I felt confident about
it. How much would I pay? How about 500 bucks, one thousand, two thousand,
three thousand dollars? I would pay it. It is a drop in the bucket compared to
what I have been through over the years. I can’t believe I would be the only
one who would do this. For those people who chose the route of seeing an
abduction researcher, they paid big bucks to see them – air fare, ground
transportation, hotels, food, and I’m sure some paid compensation for the
researcher’s time.
But determination is strong and
if the right elements come together for a good alien abduction study which had
the right components, I think abductees would pay for it. I know I would. Would
you?
I found that my husband and I were able to learn more by doing our own searching for answers. It's sad to think that most of these people... WITH SO CALLED TITLES... in what I call clubs don't know anthing , they are just there for the show, don't care about you , just there to get their names out in the public. I once had a supposed really smart person , say we must be sick because I couldn't tell her the measurement of the UFO. People it's not about measurements, it's about what 's going on inside of you.
ReplyDeleteI know it is beyond frustrating. It sounds like you have your husband to give support. That is a lucky thing to have. Thank you for your comments.
DeleteYou hit the nail on the head, Elsie. The large organizations are most concerned about collecting scientific evidence for laboratory analysis. They strive to prove that UFOs and abductions are real or to study the characteristics of abductees. Their investigators interview suspected abductees and are sometimes sympathetic. But there are few funds for support groups, hypnosis, on site visits, etc. Abductees know that physical evidence is rare and other witnesses are apprehensive about going on the record. Being an abductee is extremely frustrating. I have only found comfort in a self-help support group with other abductees, and from confiding my experiences in other experiencers who understand. I once confided in a few close friends. That was a huge mistake. In their minds, I went from being thought of as credible to being assessed as a developing lunatic.
ReplyDeleteYou described this beautifully. It's interesting as you say that they want to study the characteristics of abductees (which is okay) but not study what abductees are reporting. Wouldn't it be great if we could just talk to our friends and family about our experiences and it would be "ok"? We can dream about it. Keep up the good fight.
DeleteGreat article
ReplyDeleteThank you very much Chris. I appreciate it.
DeleteHello Connor,
ReplyDeleteI just found your site thru Chris Holly's blog. I was immediately impressed and intrigued by the sincerity of this article. This is something I have felt for a long time. There is a sort of smug dismissal of the abduction phenomenon within these organizations. That said, there are some very big-hearted people out there who are dedicated to helping people like us.
I too have a site where I attempt to make sense of similar issues. My ongoing blog is titled *Hidden Experience* and I have tried to be as honest as I can be as I grapple with my own life experiences.
Linked here:
http://hiddenexperience.blogspot.com/
I have been heartened by individuals who are now sharing their experiences in a first person way in an on-line format. I have been making an effort to reach out and communicate with these folks. This has been extremely helpful for me.
If you could contact me (via email) I would appreciate it enormously. My own life path has lead me to a place I never expected, and it has been challenging and scary. But, i have met some wonderful people along the way.
My direct email: hiddenexperience.blog@gmail.com
peace,
Mike Clelland
Thanks Mike. I will check out your link and I'm sure others will as well. Isn't the Internet a wonderful thing? We can try and reach out to others to try and offer a helping word or two. I will try to email when I can.
DeleteMy question to you Connor is: When will abductees start taking themselves seriously? As of right now, I know virtually none that do. Let me ask you a simple question please. When is the last time that you yourself checked yourself into a first rate medical facility for thorough over night sleep testing? I would like to see the results substantiated please.
ReplyDeleteIf I can find one single legitimate case where an abductee has checked themselves into a hospital, or went pleading to the authorities to harbor them from aliens that have been kidnapping them against their will, I will be satisfied.
Forgive me Sir, but your post here sounds absolutely PARANOID. Please, how about if we start by being REAL for change? That would be as opposed to just assuming that abduction reality is exactly as you state it is.
Why would you even consider a "UFO organization over medical or psychiatric professionals?
I am VERY sincere about the abduction phenomenon, and would very much like to see an end to the abductee's suffering. See this link: http://goo.gl/Xzrdb
I KNOW it's real, but just like YOU, I do not have the means to substantiate as much with respect to more than ample funding without abductees GETTING REAL. Abductees need to help the substantiation effort as opposed to the confusion Connor. Extremely qualified professionals could be at your disposal in a heart beat *IF* you REALLY wanted them to be there for you. No, they are not going to just GIVE you anything. Like anyone with a serious health malady (I know of no Gray abductees that have not suffered tremendously)you must pursue help yourself to begin with. How could anyone with a reasonable mind expect to be taken seriously with respect for what is "alien abduction" without substantiated medical profession case files?
As long as abductees settle for lack luster credentialed armchair bozos that claim to be this or that and are really just abduction fanatics, NO understanding will ever emerge from the abduction phenomenon.
Right now with respect to the abduction phenomenon, we can't even qualify those in the lead as being the "blind leading the blind". Mostly, they are CHARLATANS, whether by sheer ignorance, or intent.
Are you REALLY a part of the problem or the solution?
Dude - You're not in my league. Go home.
DeleteI have asked you several respectful and intelligent questions Connor. To which you have replied "go home"
DeleteYou Sir, are CORRECT. I am NOT in your league. What and who I am in league with however represents what I know is the ONLY answer to your real and ongoing abduction phenomenon quandary. Below we read of, IMO, a GREAT and LEGITIMATE man (DR. Kokjohn of whom I am a BIG fan) attempting to put forth his best medical and scientific efforts to challenge the seemingly incredulous nature of this phenomenon. So dedicated in fact, as a result of his true commitment to eliminating the confusion and possibly solving this powerful enigma, he has approached the abductee, rather than most, who wait patiently for the matter to come to them.
It is IMO extremely sad Connor, that your response here basically underlines, illustrates, and enforces my convictions that the biggest pitfall to REAL abduction research are the paranoid delusions of the abductees themselves. If ONLY we could get them (the abductee) to stop diagnosing themselves and truly search out the TRUTH as the incredibly brave (basically a heroine in my mind) Emma Woods has done, and is doing. We owe here a great deal for her courage to believe in herself, and not just the aliens.
Just talking about the alien abduction phenomenon on the Internet, without the guidance of critically trained and unbiased individuals, is akin to going to a flea market swap meet in an effort to obtain a rare and precious diamond. That or trying to put out the fires of ignorance with gasoline. What good has come of it thus far? Entertainment?
What *has* come from it however, is utter CONFUSION.
I will repeat the ONLY constructive mandate possible from the stand point of the abductee:
Stop listening to fools. Encourage fellow abductees to seek help where it exists in undeniable abundance. STOP PLAYING GAMES with yourselves that result in your perpetuated suffering. The next generation of abductees must stop being subjected to the same type of nonsense that is the direct result of socially derived, culture based, superstitious imagery, and NOT real scientific help, diagnosis, or definition.
If you want the Abduction Phenomenon to be perceived legitimately, it would seem nothing short of logical common sense, to proceed legitimately.
Please do not wrongly comprehend this communication as some falsely derogatory reference to anyone specific. PLEASE, instead, attempt to perceive it as a road map to the truth. That's all any of us want Connor, with respect to the abduction phenomenon. Connor, people like me crave that singular flavor of truth that would wash from our mouths forever, the taste of perpetuated ignorance. Please Connor, help this matter to go in that direction.
How smart can you possibly be if you don't even know I am female? Should I start calling you mamam? This is hilarious. Go home little boy. Go back to your sandbox with all of your other little boy toys.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteTo everyone who reads my blog. I know what I write isn't for everyone and that's cool. But on my blog - I will not tolerate crap from people who communicate in the fashion demonstrated above. This guy has no idea who I am, what I have been through, what I have endured in my lifetime, or what I have experienced. This is an example of what abductees endure from within the UFO community. It's an example of complete and total ignorance and hatred for abductees. I don't know why they are so afraid and angry about the abduction phenomenon but I will not babysit them here on my blog. I've seen it all before and I know I will see it again.
DeleteThanks for the kind words Jeff.
DeleteIt is a difficult situation for experiencers, because on the one hand people want to get scientific answers, and help from bona fide professionals, but on the other hand, the mainstream scientific community largely rejects the phenomenon out of hand without investigating it properly.
I have read a number of studies by academics who just assume beforehand that the phenomenon is not real, and who then go from there. There is no way that they can come to an understanding of what is going on, because they have shut the door to being able to investigate it by their own unchallenged cultural beliefs.
I suspect that we have to research it ourselves first, along with a few intrepid scientists and academics, and that the results of that will gradually filter into awareness in the mainstream, where they might pick up on aspects of that research and study it further.
Conner, at the risk of having this comment deleted may I say a few things?
DeleteFirst, without meaning to sound patronising, you and all other abductees have my greatest sympathy. I have no idea what you have been through and I certainly do not know how I would cope in the same situation. But some of what Jeff says does make sense.
Surely if you are not getting the help you are looking for from the UFI community then is it not a good idea to try the established medical profession? (obviously I don't know if you have taken this route at any time.)
It is obvious from many sources that hypnotism needs to be examined very carefully before being undertaken as false memories are easily implanted, not only in abduction cases but also, IMO, in recovered child abuse memory cases.
All I can say from my position on the outside is that I think I would try every way possible to get help, but I would not go into it blind. I would check credentials as I would with any doctor or surgeon who was going to get inside my head or my body.
Hi Anon,
DeleteAs far as Jeff’s comments from this blog, I quote from part of his post, “Forgive me sir, but your post here sounds absolutely PARANOID. Please, how about if we start by being REAL for a change?”
In my opinion, that is not the way to start a dialog with someone you don’t know and don’t know anything about. His statements set a very poor tone and made him come off as ignorant, attacking and foolish. Perhaps he will learn more about the alien abduction phenomenon someday and will try to understand what abductees are going through. It could happen.
Neither Jeff nor anyone else has any idea about my history with this phenomenon and what I have been through. I can’t possibly condense my experience (or my family’s) in just a few blogs. Throughout my entire life, I have gone round and round with the medical community and the UFO community as far as my experiences go. I am a big advocate of encouraging abductees to use every tool at their disposal for help. This includes the mental health community, medical doctors, art therapy, animal therapy, journaling, support groups if they are available; the point is – find things that work for you. It takes time. It’s not like an abductee can open the phone book and look under therapists and find one that will even listen. I can tell people they are out there but you have to find them. It’s an almost impossible task, but they are out there.
In my blog “Hypnosis and the Abductee” I have given my initial thoughts on the possible pitfalls and dangers of hypnosis. I am currently doing a great deal of research into the subject that I hope to bring to future articles. No one should just run into hypnosis if they “think” they are an abductee. Unfortunately, credentialed professionals can be dangerous as well. See my blog post “The Seven Steps to False Memory.” I went to a licensed psychologist and he became unhinged because he didn’t know what to make of my experiences. Some people can handle it and some can’t. This includes professional therapists.
Elsie
Project Core is a current research project that is being undertaken by two experiencers themselves, Jeremy Vaeni and Jeff Ritzmann, along with two scientists, Dr. Tyler Kokjohn (who I know from my own personal interactions respects experiencers) and Dr. Kimbal Cooper.
ReplyDeletehttp://paratopia.org/core/projectcore.html
Perhaps if more experiencers become involved in initiating and participating in the running of the research projects it will help?
I personally would like to see a moratorium put on the use of hypnosis as a memory retrieval tool, as it has the potential to cause experiencers to confabulate traumatic false memories, and it almost certainly obscures and distorts whatever real memory is buried in our minds, making it harder to learn what is going on.
It is my hope that one day all research done with experiencers will observe human research subjects protections as outlined in 'The Belmont Report: Ethical Principles and Guidelines for the protection of human subjects of research' and the 'United States Department of Health & Human Services: Code of Federal Regulations: Title 45: Public Welfare: Department of Health and Human Services: Part 46: Protection of Human Subjects'.
http://ohsr.od.nih.gov/guidelines/belmont.html
http://www.hhs.gov/ohrp/humansubjects/guidance/45cfr46.html
I believe that I am the only experiencer who has actually filed a complaint with the U.S. Office for Human Research Protections about, in my opinion, abuses that Dr. David Jacobs engaged in when I was his research subject. Although Dr. Jacobs promotes himself as a researcher conducting academic research (he had me sign a research consent form citing Temple University which said that I was a research subject), Temple University's response was that Dr. Jacobs was not conducting "research", and that therefore the Office for Human Research Protections had no mandate to investigate it.
So, although Dr. Jacobs, a leading abduction researcher in the field, promotes himself as a serious academic researcher in the area, his subjects while he was employed by Temple University were not protected as human research subjects under the law, and he got away with, in my opinion, egregious psychological abuse.
I would also like to see the day when the UFO community at large has a culture that allows experiencers and researchers to expose abuses by leading iconic figures in the field, without trying to censor them and attacking them personally.
I think that we have a long way to go, but hopefully things will improve.
Hi Emma, First I would like to say I feel horrible about what you have suffered from DJ. I listened to the tapes and I was beyond horrified. Before anyone makes a judgment of any kind about your story, they need to listen to all of those tapes. I had a personal experience with DJ of my own that was extremely distasteful and upsetting. I called him on it and he didn't have the guts to talk about it.
DeleteI hope to do some research on hypnosis and it will probably be discussed in future blogs. The pitfalls of abduction research are many and you list some valid issues to be discussed. It's a minefield out there. We do indeed have a very long way to go.
Thanks Elsie.
ReplyDeleteI am sorry that you too had an upsetting experience with DJ. I hope that you are okay after it.
I will be interested to read your future posts on hypnosis. I feel that the more experiencers talk openly about things, the more likely it is that change for the better will happen.
Hi Emma, I have recovered from my DJ encounter. (Shiver). I need to do a lot of research on some topics and I'm short on time currently with my job. I have a lot of deadlines but I will do what I can. I totally agree that the more we talk about the issues, the better it is for everyone. It's how we learn and grow.
DeleteElsie ,
ReplyDeleteI hope that you keep posting on your blog and not let the above email from JD stop you. For those of us for different reasons that can't go public,this is really great. We have a little support group starting here. It sounds like you and Emma have had bad experiences with DJ. The Ufo bureau that looked into our case had me go through hypnosis, and looking back, I would refuse, what happened is every thing came tumbling out, and for a while I had alot to deal with , and even years later I still don't have a complete picture of what happened . I also am looking forward to your posts on hypnosis.
It sounds like you went through a lot really fast. That can be a tough thing. You are right that it can take years to try and process it all. I would not recommend hypnosis for people wanting to learn about their experiences either for a variety of reasons. I do plan to keep posing to my blog. The posts from JD above were just an example of what abductees have to put up with in the UFO community. It's a curious phenomenon in a way. It seems to be a lot of ignorance and fear but that is not our problem. We have to deal with what is happening to us and we do that in the best way we know how. Thank you for your comments.
DeleteCommenter Jeff Davis text: "Below we read of, IMO, a GREAT and LEGITIMATE man (DR. Kokjohn of whom I am a BIG fan) attempting to put forth his best medical and scientific efforts to challenge the seemingly incredulous nature of this phenomenon. So dedicated in fact, as a result of his true commitment to eliminating the confusion and possibly solving this powerful enigma, he has approached the abductee, rather than most, who wait patiently for the matter to come to them."
ReplyDelete________
Dr. Tyler Kokjohn is personal friends with and colleagues (in Project CORE) of self-described "experiencers"/"abductees" Jeff Ritzmann and Jeremy Vaeni. To date, Dr. Kokjohn has not asked
either one of them to provide evidence (dna or otherwise) of their claims regarding visitations and experiences. The most recent visitation was the home invasion of Jeff Ritzmann's abode by what he calls "Shroudman" - a non-human entity who spent time with him in his home making him take dictations on the nature of the universe. There would be plenty of dna evidence left behind, but I do not read of Dr. Kokjohn pressing Mr. Ritzmann for even the most basic - such as swabbing the floors where the "Shroudman" walked around him. Yet Mr. Ritzmann has publicized this visitation on his Paratopia Podcast, his Paratopia Forum (which he recently deleted, all posts lost) and on Youtube. So, Dr. Kokjohn is quite aware of the claims being made. It would seem friendship has gotten in the way of pursuing the scientific method for evidence by Dr. Kokjohn.
Dear Anonymous, faceless, and ill-informed individual,
DeleteDr. Kokjohn and I have had extensive conversations about trying to gather evidence of physicality in my (and in others) experiences. He has, at his own expense and time, sent me data gathering tools such as several sterile medical grade sample containers and sterile swabs to gather any sort of materials I can. To date, I have not been provided the opportunity to gather anything - however if this entity would touch anything I will use the tools Dr. Kokjohn supplied me with.
I have not stated unequivocally that I think this being is totally physical. It certainly seems to be as near as I can tell. But is it? Who's to say. I simply don't know, as "it" has exhibited characteristics that physicality would not allow - just as much as it's exhibited characteristics that it is indeed a tangible reality.
In my first encounter with this entity, when "he" left, asked that I open the door for him to walk out. He would not touch the door to open it. Symbolic, inability, or evasion? Who knows. I am still waiting and watching for opportunity. I will say that keeping one's wits about them in the presence of the phenomenon enough to gather data is not easy by any stretch - anyone, and I do mean anyone, who has legitimately interacted with it know this to be undeniable.
Yes, my message board was deleted by myself after ProBoards refused to tell me what content was objectionable within specific posts they targeted by way of a complaint. They specified "untruths" and yet would not demonstrate where alleged untruths were. Many posts contained no direct statements, but free opinions and demonstrable fact. Rather than be shut down for refusing to remove the posts - I removed us. Not one more thin dime of ad revenue for them, from our board. I explained this is great detail on the program.
But, back to your point? Dr. Kokjohn is in fact helping me to become equipped with the tools to gather physical evidence should the opportunity present. So, the entire notion of your post is wrong, and moreover transparent in it's intent.
I do so love this "field" where people can claim so much information and know nothing whatsoever.
Jeff Ritzmann
Mr. Ritzmann, as for your "Shroudman" claims. You mentioned on your Paratopia, that "Shroudman" walked around you on the floor of your home (after he apparently supernaturally broke in to your residence). You also mentioned his flowing garments, which swept the floor. I would think his walking on the floor and garments touching the floor would leave evidence for you to gather and Dr. Kokjohn to test.
DeleteI look forward to the publication of the various test results from Dr. Kokjohn on your visitations from "Shroudman". And, after all Mr. Ritzmann,this wasn't your first encounter with "Shroudman". According to what you shared on your Paratopia, he was perched on your (or a neighbor's) fence, a couple of months before this home invasion, staring at you while you fed your koi fish. You could have swabbed the top of the fence for evidence (perhaps you did?). Then earlier last year, "Shroudman" scratched your back (and you posted photos of the wounds, but took those photos down) as he warned you to not speak of him (which you did anyhow).
It's interesting too Mr. Ritzmann, that you aren't in an altered state (which most experiencers are) when "Shroudman" intrudes in your life. Yet, with your full wits about you, you failed to touch him, grab him, scratch him, pull on his robe or hood -- not to be violent mind you; but to gather evidence which you yourself demand of some other experiencers.
Mr. Ritzmann, you are also an expert with photography, so you no doubt have the wear-with-all to set up cameras to record the inside and outside of your residence ,which is a veritable paranormal 'hotspot', to possibly capture an image of "Shroudman" and the other paranormal happenings you've claimed.
What with Dr. Kokjohn at your disposal and your considerable abilities and talents I expect some very interesting, scientifically sound test results to be publically made available.
I spent about a decade in the appreciative camp of Jacobs myself but must now report that he is, in my opinion, a very effective and convincing psychopath.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.alienview.net/conspire.html
I'd fought Jacobs battles. I'd bought his books. I can understand the attraction once under its spell in my own experience. I would be in his camp still. ...but, in his defense, I was quick to make short work of this "shrill harridan" Emma Woods and so I studied the evidence of his, alleged, infidelity looking for the slander... ...she had him on un-redacted tape!
Truth is truth even if you have to rethink your meme plot, reader, and one does not have to resort to soiled undergarments or medieval sex-toys to officiate that re-thinking.
That said, David Jacobs (in my opinion), pretty clearly not even believing the substance of his own narrative, is that sugar-sweet psychopath alluded to above and is provably capable of throwing a sincere and trusting woman in his charge (EW) under a psychological bus--for conjectured pecuniary reasons at worst or ones more cowardly at best-- when he informed her, authoritatively, that she had a serious mental disorder requiring hard drugs and years of therapy... when he knew that that was untrue, was egregiously incompetent to make such a diagnosis, and then abandoned her shortly there-after.
I'd say "physician, heal thyself," but David Jacobs, untrained hypno-therapist, clearly, is no physician. Tyler Kokjohn, on the other hand, is everything HE purports--and is purported--to be, and more. So, there you have it. Beset by all manners of the highly strange I'm a person aspiring to the reasonable and rational, still. Frankly, given the evidence extant and the subsequent behavior of David Jacobs (et al) following the disclosure of that evidence? Well, what's a reasonable person to do but live with his conscience, as inconvenient, as unsettling or as de-popularizing as that conscience might be?
Thank you, Alfred.
DeleteThank you, Alfred.
DeleteAs usual J, you don't half as much as you think you do...
ReplyDeleteFor starters I've said several times this being does have an effect on perception, and has an "altered state" feel. In the presence of this being I'm in what I've started to call hopelessly calm. I'm incapable of much but listening, and being intently focused on the experience. Since you've said that you've never had a paranormal experience, you're ill-equipped to understand much of what surrounds these types of events.
And in fact, I have set up cameras to predominantly catch the white ball (or egg) of light that we (and several guests) have seen in my home. To date, I have not seen anything on the tape, but did get an audible vocalization. A laugh, that was I believe played on the show.
As far as the pics of my back? To my knowledge they were not taken down, unless we moved the location or folder. But since you find this such a bone of contention:
http://www.paratopia.org/images/back1.jpg
http://www.paratopia.org/images/back2.jpg
There ya go...and so what? You make some empty assumption that since they went offline, or were moved that someone's trying to pull a fast one? I'll show them to whomever wants to see them. I'm not ashamed of anything, no matter how much you'd like it to be so.
Lastly, this wasn't the product of talking about "him". It was the product of talking about certain personal revelations given only to me, about me, and for me. I can and do, speak of this experience. But certain items are off limits - and they aren't revelations to anyone but me personally. Nothing of great interest to anyone else, no secrets anyone would care about. It's just seemingly, the way it is.
By the way? You obviously with all your wisdom know nothing of collecting specimens. You want as uncontaminated a specimen as possible. A outdoor fence, or a carpet walked on daily by a family? Not a great source. The contaminants would render a much more difficult job. I'd prefer to get something as close to the source as possible with the least amount of contaminant - and that's if I can keep the presence of mind to actually do that. Again, you're not equipped to understand that, but most experiencers would.
I love that you see this as a supernatural B&E that one would or could call the cops for. Please, continue with this sort of nonsense, and further prove my point. It's that kind of thinking that leaves you, as one poster here said "out of your league", but I'd prefer out of your depth.
I don't intend to go rounds here - you've made your point and effectually called me a liar. Good for you. If that's what fulfills you, that's your problem. Luckily, I can just look away.
JR wrote: " As usual J, you don't half as much as you think you do..."
DeleteThe latter part of that statement is true, but you're quite wrong in the former, referring to me as "J".
JR wrote: "Since you've said that you've never had a paranormal experience, you're ill-equipped to understand much of what surrounds these types of events."
When did I state or write that I've "never had a paranormal experience", thus rendering me in your words "ill-equipped to understand"?
JR wrote: "And in fact, I have set up cameras to predominantly catch the white ball (or egg) of light that we (and several guests) have seen in my home."
I trust they're running 24/7 inside and out. We know that we can't command paranormal/ufological activity to just happen on our whim, so digilence is in order for the person making the paranormal claim in the event it happens again.
JR wrote: "As far as the pics of my back? To my knowledge they were not taken down, unless we moved the location or folder.I'll show them to whomever wants to see them. I'm not ashamed of anything, no matter how much you'd like it to be so. "
There could have been an opportunity to collect evidence from the "Shroudman" fingernails when they scratched into the flesh of your skin. A trip to the e.r. where evidence could have been collected, your wound treated and medical documentation made for as you stated above, you're "not ashamed of anything". Keep this in mind if you're physically attacked again. [thinking here of the goals of your Project CORE and your professional colleagues/friends who want various evidence for the claims of experiencers]
JR wrote: "By the way? You obviously with all your wisdom know nothing of collecting specimens. You want as uncontaminated a specimen as possible. A outdoor fence, or a carpet walked on daily by a family? Not a great source. The contaminants would render a much more difficult job."
Then it seems there will be no forthcoming evidence to back up the claims you've made if you're going to use such excuses. If this was a non-human, whatever "Shroudman" and his flowing robe are made of, he might be distinguished from you, your family & pets.
JR wrote: "Again, you're not equipped to understand that, but most experiencers would."
You actually have no knowledge if I'm an experiencer or not. Your presumption that all experiencers would think and behave as you do is wrong and remarkably arrogant. I know this from personal experience.
JR wrote: "I love that you see this as a supernatural B&E that one would or could call the cops for. Please, continue with this sort of nonsense"
Regarding "nonsense" - I never wrote you should "call the cops".
JR wrote: " It's that kind of thinking that leaves you, as one poster here said "out of your league", but I'd prefer out of your depth."
No, that was the blog owner writing to another commenter.
JR wrote: "I don't intend to go rounds here - you've made your point and effectually called me a liar. Good for you. If that's what fulfills you, that's your problem."
Only you know the truth. Observing how you chucked ad hominems at me in the thread suggests you're very defensive. And your labeling me someone I'm not and assigning statements to me which I've never made, suggests paranoia. If truth really is on your side, along with evidence to back your claims, I don't think you'd be writing in such a manner. I do wonder how you'd hold up under the scrutiny of your oft suggested idea [on your podcast and forum] of "police round robin" questions that you believe an experiencer should undergo. ;-)
Really? Well then perhaps you'll enlighten me as to who you are then? Whats your name sir or ma'am? Because it's all very convenient and safe to level issues when no one knows who you are.
DeleteI don't see any personal attacks either, so you can try that elsewhere.
Also, when did anyone say (besides you) that the entity was the one who whipped my back? Do you even know what it is you're trying to talk about?
JR text: "Really? Well then perhaps you'll enlighten me as to who you are then? Whats your name sir or ma'am? Because it's all very convenient and safe to level issues when no one knows who you are. I don't see any personal attacks either, so you can try that elsewhere."
DeleteWell, Mr Ritzmann, My name is irrelevant to you. I recall you writing to me - on your now defunct Paratopia Forum, which you conveniently nuked so all posts are gone - "Look, I don't know you! But this is what we believe here" ect. And, then you wrote on about a pet theory you and your co-host had and stated the subject was now closed for discussion even though the thread was active and lively with respectful interactions - except for you. I posted there with my full name and it didn't make your interactions any different. Several people posted with their full names and some were banned for questioning and/or disagreeing with you. I simply stopped posting and watched the devolution of your forum from afar to the point it was members parroting what you and your partner stated. You impressed me as an unstable, petty forum tyrant who cursed out posters and banned members that weren't towing the particular Paratopia party line.
.
JR text: "Also, when did anyone say (besides you) that the entity was the one who whipped my back? Do you even know what it is you're trying to talk about?"
Mr. Ritzmann I never stated or wrote that your "Shroudman" had "whipped" your back. I simply accepted what you had written on your forum (which you nuked, so no posts can even be referenced now). And, to answer your final question to me - Yes, compared to your confused ramblings I'm fairly confident that I "know what it is" I'm "trying to talk about".
This side discussion has run its course and my apologies to the blog owner Conner, for my part in this. It's bad enough we have MUFON and CUFOS that are half-#%$* at best now, particularly when it comes to the controversial and complex topic of experiencers, which seems to have become even more marginalized. And, the main topic for these organizations -UFOs, is still being tittered at by the lamestream press and even amongst some in the two organizations.
I get it. Anonymous is one of those lucky few who got kicked off the message board and now has a vendetta.
DeleteLet me give you perspective on why exchanges like these are annoying. Incidentally, it probably has to do with why you were kicked off the board to begin with. It's not that we need you to mimic us. It's that you're one of those people who refuse to be wrong in the face of all evidence. Talking to a wall of righteous indignation after the point has been made time and again? Not fun. I digress....
In the above exchange, when you're not parroting naive questions you think are smart from a blog post about Jeff's experiences written by a narcissist with a chip, you say things like, "There could have been an opportunity to collect evidence from the 'Shroudman' fingernails when they scratched into the flesh of your skin."
Nobody ever posited the scratches were from fingernails. Mainly we referred to the marks as whip marks. I said it looked like he got into a fight with a bobcat or a rake. Jeff doesn't know what made them because he woke up with them.
Then Jeff, glancing over the fact that you were talking about fingernails and going back to how he has always referred to the marks--as whip marks--writes, ".... [W]hen did anyone say (besides you) that the entity was the one who whipped my back? Do you even know what it is you're trying to talk about?"
And you retort: "Mr. Ritzmann I never stated or wrote that your 'Shroudman' had 'whipped' your back. I simply accepted what you had written on your forum...."
Well, the first part is true. But what Mr. Ritzmann wrote on the forum was that he felt like he got whipped, not nails to the back. So the second part is false. That's annoying. Pull back from that and what's meta annoying is that you are talking past each other and YOU are wrong on both accounts, but you're too busy trying to score points in your head playing literalist to acknowledge that.
Here. Let me show you.
Your point is the fingernail thing. Well, it's a false premise. Nobody mentioned fingernails, so you're wrong.
Jeff, taking your point more generally, is saying that nobody even said "Shroudman" touched him (or whipped him) at all to begin with. He felt whipped, he didn't say by whom. How could he? As I pointed out, he woke up with the marks. So again, you're wrong.
Jeff asked, "Do you even know what it is you're trying to talk about?" - And I think you answered that one for all of us.
This type of thing can go on and on with no resolution because the only real resolution--and let's just be human beings here and get real about it--the only resolution is that you ask yourself why it is that you have this perpetual need to be right and prove him wrong. You can disguise it as intellectual inquiry all you want. Nobody buys that, not even you. It's the same with the guy Ms. Conner kicked out.
You're doing the same thing from a different direction. It doesn't matter if he's a skeptic and you're an experiencer--or however your life stories shake out. There is this perpetual need, as Jeff has said on many occasions, to be the smartest person in the room and to play gotcha. I think the guy who got the boot fits the smartest person in the room motif and you fit the gotcha. The pathetic thing is that you're both so passive-aggressive you can't just come out and say what you mean. You have to play it off like you "really mean it."
Why wouldn't you call the cops, Ms. Conner? Why wouldn't you swab the rug, Jeff?
Well, I think the answer to both of those questions is that the people asking them don't mean it in the first place so why even bother answering? There's only one question that is honest and it's this: What are you doing here, really?
Because if you can't be truthful about your motives, then who are you to question anybody else?
There's the tag team partner, Mr. Vaeni. Oh well...
DeleteI would counter with published words from both of your former colleague in the paranormal David Biedny, as he commented about Mr. Ritzmann regarding his "Shroudman" claims -> "As Ritzmann admitted to me in a private email - that he and his wife are totally comfortable lying profusely - I am not surprised to see him making stuff up for attention, and I'm very happy to see that he and Vaeni are being publicly taken to task for their shadiness and total lack of honesty." http://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=3963595&postID=5390802423141527864
I am sure you would counter with that. Now ask yourself what profuse lying he could possibly be referring to. In fact, ask David. The answer is comical. He said it on an alleged "show." Go dig it up and have a laugh. Maybe this will solve the other Biedny riddle: Why we've never addressed his nonsense on air. (SPOILER ALERT: because most thoughtful people get what he's about and so there's no need to go down a list of really dumb lies.)
ReplyDeleteTruly. Ask him.
Regarding the Shroudman thread - Hi Anonymous, Jeremy Vaeni, and JR: I don't know what is being debated here and I am not taking sides. I don't know what the background story is or what the problems are but this thread doesn't seem to have anything to do with what I wrote in the blog. I don't mind people having their say but this line of debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere. Can we find another way for this conversation to proceed in another forum of some kind? Thanks guys.
ReplyDeleteHmmm..I've had many years to observe and think about this. I know that in some, the need for more mainstream validation is important if not critical to their own journey. No worries and much understanding. But I've come to suspect that the quest for such a thing is folly. These experiences and their ramifications are not, I believe, for public consumption. The government and "science" won't take the risk and those who are instigating these encounters prefer the trickster approach most of the time and seem to value the cloak of secrecy - whatever happens - as weird as it can get - seems vaguely by design. If they are as ancient and advanced as I suspect they are, they tend to get their own way most of the time. I think it's important to realize that if both suppositions are correct, the obstacles to validation are, shall we say, formidable. It might be that the Organizations you mention know this and so prefer to keep their "cred" high with those NOT directly affected by these experiences - the vast majority. It's not and never will be "let's do science", because the scientific method cannot be used with data variables potentially manipulated by unknown forces with strong motivations to see certain "results". And isn't it ironic that confusion and marginalization serves the purposes of both governments and those responsible for the experiences and that may be what we're up against. And at this point, a few words caution for those inclined to take such things...be careful what you wish for. Just sayin. And that said, I also think that if enough of those who've shared these experiences got together, more data of substance might be sussed out through common understanding amongst a large group. It takes one to know one. At least that's been my experience. I'd really love to see a board sans personalities...and yet moderated with a fair hand and a modicum of intelligence...know what I mean?. I've also come to suspect that those behind these encounters actually might prefer this to happen someday, as they have a tendency to bring us together sometimes. Mike C. could probably talk more about this. At least, that's my hunch. Read his blog. Just stuff I think about. And I do appreciate the chance to talk about this.
ReplyDeleteA pleasure to read you again Emma. Nice to know your hanging in there.
Thank you very much.
DeleteElsie ... Whats happened to your website?
ReplyDeleteHi, I don't know, did something weird happen to the blog? I don't see anything wrong currently. Can you be more specific?
DeleteHi Elsie ..The rest of your blog has disapeared and all that is left is the Jan. 31 one.. and a bunch of questions and answers.
ReplyDeleteHi, that is really weird. I've checked the blog site on two different computers and it looks okay here. Try clearing your history by clicking on Tools - Internet Options - Delete Browsing History, then reopen a new browser and see if that clears it up for you.
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